| It must be Halloween! The last few weeks of PvP have left me in a bit of a bind comment-wise. I was not enthralled with the Bone-Burglar/Skull dynamic, but then I really enjoyed the zombie apocalypse story. Probably as much as I have enjoyed any PvP recently. The art was excellent, especially the subtle touches of zombification on Jade after she turned. The story was tightly plotted satire. It's nice to know that when Kurtz is forced to, he is able to begin and end an arc. I couldn't comment because, well, it wasn't making me sad. Then we got the John Hughes/Cole montage which alternated between too soon and too boring. I'm the kind of guy, as my friends can attest, who will occasionally plunge through a 400 page book in one day because I don't have anything better to do. So when I tell you that a comic strip was not able to maintain my interest for an entire five panels, well, let's just say by panel two of 'Planes Trains and Get the Hell Out of My Kitchen' I had nodded off. The Kubrick throw-away the next day was clever, but so soon after a 'good' storyline, the John Hughes/Cole bit seemed more lazy than anything else. So, I apologize. I know I'm supposed to be churning up interesting topics in the tradition of FSM, but I have been largely uninspired to post recently. Hopefully as we return to more 'regular' plot-lines we can pick up the thread again here, as well. Enjoy your weekend! |
Friday, October 16
Zombies Ghosts and Ghouls
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Nope, I was wrong! LOLBAT for a week. I can't make myself care about this blatant spiderman rip-off at all. Wake me up when PvP returns.
ReplyDeletePlease never come back to PvP R.W. Seriously. You're not welcome.
ReplyDeleteThursday, September 10
ReplyDeleteHow to be Subversive
I just wanted to make a quick note about today's PVP guest strip by Paul Southworth. First off, the artwork was excellent. Southworth is able to fit a lot of expression into four small boxes, and the way he used background to convey mood while also setting up location was extremely effective.
Even more interesting, however, was the way he subverted LOLbat's character. This LOLbat isn't a two-dimensional internet meme factory. No, this is a true crime fighter who has been pigeon-holed by his alter-ego; a two-dimensional internet meme factory. He doesn't want to put on the act anymore, he doesn't want to don the disguise...he just wants to go out and fight crime, but he can't...everybody wants their favorite meme.
Not only does this create a deeper character, but it cleverly satirizes how quickly we fall out of love with our own catch-phrases and pop-culture, and how some people hold onto it longer than others.
A very good job by Mr. Southworth, in my opinion.
Posted by R.W.McGee at 2:10 PM 16 comments
Well, he doesn't really seem to be spurting internet memes here either... just speaking in the stupid syntax that people use when writing LOLcat captions.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I'm just out of touch with 4chan. The "banana" response makes no sense at all to me, for instance.
I guess since Kurtz already removed me from his BFF list, it won't hurt if I point out the irony inherent in following up his strip positing a Twilight/Chocula crossover (ie: making a point about crass advertising crossing over into the creative realm) with a week of LOLBAT strips after he managed to incorporate the character into the City of Heroes computer game.
ReplyDeleteMy only guess is that it might refer to the banana that does the 'peanut butter jelly time' dance? No clue.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, the thing is A Nonny Mouse, the reason he's having trouble working memes in is because this is a plot line straight out of Superman. (Doris = Lois, Daily Blogle = Daily Planet et al.)
Wow. You just so don't get it. Really. You need to stop reading my website. It's clearly not for you.
ReplyDeleteSeriously. I'll sleep better knowing you no longer read my comic.
Well, the point is that it's supposed to be blatantly Lois' date from Superman but with Lolbat replacing superman. The concept is silly and therefore it's a joke. Whether you like it or not probably depends on how you feel about icanhazcheezburger at the moment... but I don't think it really warrants three (so far) strips with pretty much the same joke...
ReplyDeleteI would offer up that the art is fantastic, even if the two latest strips kind of fall flat joke-wise.
ReplyDeleteThe first in the LOLBat/Superman crossover was actually pretty good. Invisible rope was a good punchline and made me chuckle. The others so far just feel forced.
I agree - the Lois is stunning. The detail and subtlety in her facial expressions and hair in particular stand out and add to the contrast against the Lolbat.
ReplyDeleteTHANK you. I feel like this is some of my best art to date. I'm really happy with the strips. They were a pleasure to draw. I've been looking forward to getting up every morning and doing the next one. And we have a big reveal coming Friday regarding the LOLBAT.
ReplyDeleteLOLBAT is supposed to be stupid and annoying. So when someone emails me and says "LOLBAT is really stupid and annoying." I think "Yeah, that's the joke."
The intention of the LOLBAT's being annoying isn't lost. The difficulty comes when reading an annoying character becomes difficult and/or off-putting to the reader. For characters like this to work, an author has to have achieved a particular mastery of storytelling and alternating perspective to keep the reader's interest. Imagine what a 1960' spin-off of Egghead from Batman would have been like, and how easily that could have failed.
ReplyDeleteIronically, I though the LOLBAT strip where he was fighting the criminal syndicate was far superior to this arc, just because it was told more from the villains' perspective.
To compare your work against itself, Scott, hold Kringus up to LOLBAT. Your style works quite well with Kringus, where as LOLBAT doesn't come off any more appealing than the Jingle Force 5. While Paul's take on LOLBAT just brings it to a higher level in a whole different class.
It's like writing a song that is sung better by another artist.
I do have a question, though. Did you draw Lois, Perry, and parts of Clark? Or are they traced?
In my opinion, the illustrations are just too spot-on to be paired with the LOLBAT. A more style-congruent representation might sell the humor of this parody better than a mood-setting (the mood being action) copy of the movie.
Where as I found the artistic differences actually accentuated "Milking It". In that case, the finer art work of the first two panels clearly highlights the fantasy (idealized) notions of the story Brent is trying to convey; versus the lesser evolved, "this is what you get" [by comparison only] art of the in-fantasy-'reality' of Brent's conversation with the Bone Burlar [assuming he is not now a permanent part of the PVP cast].
I'm using still from the movie as reference. It's really helpful. I want it to feel a lot like the movie. With the faces though, I really don't trace. It's pointless to try to trace Margot Kidder's face. You gotta just draw the face you want there.
ReplyDeleteAnyway. I'm super happy with it and aside from a few people here apparently, everyone is really loving this series. So it's been super-fun.
I'm glad that you're enjoying your work. Truthfully, I'm not finding this arc objectionable at all. If fact, I like the premise. And, I'm personally biased against the LOLBAT, just because the meme annoys me.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying the art is bad. But, this last strip is sort of like watching Jim Belushi as Superman in a green-screen rendition of the movie. If that's the point,... oh well, I guess. But, green-screen is only funny because of how obviously bad it is. The intention of obvious just doesn't come across to me in this strip. Although a Clark Kent drawn half out-of-panel in the style of LOLBAT might have helped drive that point home. Having seen varying interpretations at pvponline, this particular combination of artistic styles obscures the comedic value of the strip for me.
An alternative suggestion would also be making over the LOLBAT to the level of Lois Lane. Like putting him in a new suit, sort of.
I think it might be awesome to see LOLBAT drawn in more of an art-deco fashion with a hint of noir. It might help to remove the slapstick feel and replace it with a more dry delivery for a ridiculous joke.
On a non-strip related level; If you want to argue about something here, fine. If you want to call me names or something...I don't really care.
ReplyDeleteBut don't give me this 'don't come to the site bullcrap.'
A) I care as much about whether you want me to read your web-comic as 'random movie critic X' cares whether Uwe Boll wants him to watch his movie.
and
B) If I bought a skull plush or book or whatever, you would cash that check in a second. So if you want to disagree with me or say mean things about my parentage...go for it.
This whole 'people who don't like all of my work every day (and/or aren't my peers) don't belong on my website!' is Bull, and it's really pathetic bull at that.
Finally, my main complaint at the moment is that I know you CAN be original, but I don't think you're pushing yourself to be. It's not; omfg Kurtz is teh suxorz! It's just disappointment that you aren't exploring your own capabilities.
Take that for what you will.
Actually I wonder about whether "pushing" is the right idea - I think some of the funniest strips came from the sleep-deprived 24-hour challenges - who remembers "My Parents are Dead" (http://www.pvponline.com/my-parents-are-dead/) ? And of course there was the excellent week of zombie comics...
ReplyDeleteMaybe "pushing yourself" actually dries up the natural humour and energy of a comic. I feel like Kris Straub has done the same thing with Starslip - it's not nearly as funny as his manic doodles in Chainsawsuit...
See Hark! A Vagrant as another example: here is a woman who appears to draw whatever she feels like, and sometimes changes her mind about where the strip is going half way through. But it still manages to be entertaining, and is getting referenced by many major webcomics (I think I saw shoutouts by Penny-Arcade and xkcd?)
So... I guess I'm arguing maybe "trying harder" isn't the best way to get good comedy?
Well, I'm not going to apologize for trying to improve my art. I mean, it's kind of impossible not to. anytime you sit down to draw you're practicing your craft. It's just that when you leave comfort zones you tend to make more accidents and you learn more from your accidents. I don't know what else to do but push to improve my work. The other choice is stagnating and that's sounds horrible to me.
ReplyDeleteR.W. I will absolutely tell you not to come to my site. I don't think it's for you. Your posts and comments about my work indicate that you're bored with it beyond the point of annoyance. So much so that you started up a new blog to complain about how pedestrian and unoriginal I am when the other side dedicated to that dried up. You don't belong there. You should stop coming.
To address your points:
A) Bullshit. You clearly care what I think, otherwise you wouldn't have created a website dedicated to talking about my work in intricate detail. You need it so much that you recreated the site you swore you were done with. So stop pretending.
B) Buying my plush or book or whatever says NOTHING and grants you NOTHING. It means we entered into a simple transaction that ended the moment the product was delivered. Done. You wanted a book, I exchanged a book for money. Done. I provided what you asked for. It has nothing to do with the site, my work, or your right to contribute to the creative process.
Personally, I think you focus so much on my unfulfilled potential because it's much easier than addressing your OWN unfulfilled potential.
Which is the #1 reason you should stop obsessing about my site. Don't you claim to be a writer or something? Maybe you should dedicate some time to that.
"here is a woman who appears to draw whatever she feels like, and sometimes changes her mind about where the strip is going half way through."
ReplyDeleteWhen I do this, you guys complain. I just want you to be aware of this. It's not the same with me. You guys have to see that.
I can't speak for R.W., but I'd like to post a few of my thoughts based on my interpretation of some of his recent and past comments. In my opinion, PvP in the late 90s-early 2000s was consistently funny and original, both in story arcs and individual strips. In my oh-so-humble opinion, it was the best or at least equal to ANY webcomic published in that period. However, in the past few years, the comic has made me laugh a lot less frequently and it has become rarer that the story arcs hook me the way they used to. I read PvPMMS because I used to really look forward to reading PvP every day, and I have this (selfish) hope that PvP returns to that form of what I thus far consider its golden age.
ReplyDeleteI don't read PvPMMS because I want to read about art-nitpicks or even real-time story arc complaints. I do because some of the people who have written here seem to share my taste in humor and also seem to perceive a decline in the comic's quality. However, kudos to Scott for what I perceive as a continued rise in the comic's financial success and number of readers.
I just don't feel like my taste in humor has changed that much, so I'm trying to identify why I don't enjoy PvP as much. I like hearing other perspectives since PvP seems to remain extremely popular despite my personal perception. I feel like many of the jokes have become bland and cliche and the main characters have become less likeable. And I know characters like Scratch and LoLbat are "new" to PvP, but because they're based on cliches I feel like Scott has an uphill battle in making them funny, or putting them in situations that are both interesting and entertaining. Assuming I'm right that my taste hasn't changed too much, I guess creative processes that go on for years can evolve to appeal to different audiences. i.e. I loved the Simpsons up through about season 8 then felt like the quality took a huge nosedive for a number of years.
Also, my incentive for reading PvP (or most comics) has never been for the art. My personal preference is for interesting plots and humor, and if a particular comic happens to blend them with good art (i.e. something like Calvin and Hobbes or www.girlgeniusonline.com) then that is just extra icing on the cake for me. So while it's fun to see Scott's artistic growth (and he has made some cool improvements), I still loved the comic back when the art was simpler but the writing seemed to be the main inspiration.
I SPENT THE EVENING WITH LOLBAT PT. 4, panel 4-
ReplyDeleteI guess I saw that one coming.
-"An alternative suggestion would also be making over the LOLBAT to the level of Lois Lane. Like putting him in a new suit, sort of."-
I wasn't expecting such a literal interpretation to present itself, though. And, it's almost everything I had asked for.
-"I think it might be awesome to see LOLBAT drawn in more of an art-deco fashion with a hint of noir. It might help to remove the slapstick feel and replace it with a more dry delivery for a ridiculous joke."-
And the more I look at it, the funnier it gets for me. I love it... because it's ridiculous.
When did you actually draw that one, Scott? I simply must know.
Upstairs, Downstairs-
Unfortunately for my distaste in LOLBAT, the damn thing works. Butler and LOLBAT in the same strip allow me to see the clearly congruent linework between the two products. Mainly, in the jawline. (I feel like I just learned something about art...on an elementarty level, yeah...but still...)
I have mixed feelings about joining the two strips. But, again, they work. If Cole and Brent can drive around in the General Lee, and travel through time in the DeLorean; then why not this? I feel like I've been stabbed in my massive, soft underbelly, right where it gets me the most...in context.
Damn you, Kurtz. Damn you to Hell!
And, he should have put the mustache on last...just because.
pppttt!
Yeah, great reveal, actually. I actually did not see that coming at all.
ReplyDelete(Also, the Chris above with the really long post is not me... wish there was a way to distinguish that)
Yeah, that's very well said Chris. As far as webcomics go Penny Arcade has always been my favorite by a good margin, but there was a period in the early 00s when PVP was second and third place was VERY far away. The art was rudimentary, but Scott had created a cast of characters, he created some clever story-lines that would reference contemporary (and at that time often geek related) culture, but as SATIRE not as a direct pull. It was original and it was funny. It built the foundation for the large following he now enjoys.
ReplyDeleteI am only a reader, so I can't say exactly when or why things begin to change. (Although I can say that the paint-ball storyline was the first time I witnessed dissatisfaction on a large scale.) Characters begin to stagnate, an increasing number of storylines led nowhere at all, and the amount of 'one offs' begin to multiply...and they started to ignore satire in favor of parody. Why? Who knows. Mr. Scott Kurtz is hardly the first or the most 'high profile' creator to have a series start to run a little to long. Compare a recent Grisham or King novel to one written in either author's heyday and you will find evidence of slippage.
Now, pushing your artwork forward is good, we've all watched it's growth recently which has been impressive. Art only takes you so far, in a webcomic, though. You need to tell compelling and/or funny stories as well.
Control Alt Delete has similar art to older PA strips (some may theorize suspiciously similar art, and plot.) but imitation just doesn't cut it. Buckley was able to ride the PA formula to moderate success, but he will never be competitive with PA (or PVP likely) because he doesn't have his own ideas, his own style. If PvPMMS has any reason for existence it's that I believe a great many people would rather not see PvP fall into the same trap.
The finale strip was cute, after a run I thought was pretty bad. I do think it's a shame that Scott chose to do the ridiculous "Lolbat as Kent" strip, since it takes away from the reveal to have Lolbat have two secret identities. Plus, frankly, the Tick did that gag better years ago.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Dave Or Is It, Scott's probably right. I can't claim to know the creative process for every strip, but I have a feeling that the ones which tend towards some sort of easy and inane gag are the ones that he "didn't try too hard" with.
ReplyDeleteThe art does seem to become less rigid and more visually interesting when he's doing those 24 hour thingies, though. I don't know what the reason for that would be. Something about pushing for a strict deadline? Perhaps a sense of artistic freedom instilled by the thought of not necessarily having to fit into continuity? Who knows?